MudMan

It’s a fair question to ask why you were using MS Authenticator in the first place, but if you have to use it for a work thing I’m not isue if it will export to other TOTP alternatives or not for Microsoft account stuff. Does anybody know for sure?

I think your read on what people typically do with Plex probably doesn’t align with reality. I also think in the end you’re way less optimistic about the potential of open source software than I am. There are multiple areas where OSS options are either dominant or very competitive, but I am also clearly way less picky about how that gradient of openness to commerciality than you are. We can agree that it’s fine that there are options for both or all steps in that gradient, but there is a ton of snark and all-or-nothing attitude in that community as well.

I will say that If you have a commercial option like Plex and a couple of open alternatives (say Kodi and Jellyfin for the sake of argument) I would prefer one of those to have the type of UX that can compete with the closed commercial product because you can compete with open alternatives.

If jellyfin adopted HA’s model of paid development, I’d be thrilled. But HA’s strategy is actually pretty unique, it’ll take time for that structure to be stress-tested and propagate.

Well, hey, there we agree, then. I’d say that the setup for HA is actually fairly Mozilla-like, and people don’t seem thrilled with THAT, so it wasn’t a given you’d agree. Plex certainly isn’t that. For one thing it’s commercial and closed source. But crucially HA’s commercial branch WILL have a bunch of your data, including voice processing and login info, if you do buy into their paid subscription service.

As for the rest of the argument, most is redundant so I’m not gonna go through the loop again, I am actually busy. But I will add a few things. For one thing, whether I think FOSS is worth “any level of inconvenience” is irrelevant. I do, and I do live with the inconvenience in some cases. But if the goal is for FOSS to be mainstream and a primary choice (and it can absolutely be, there are plenty of examples), then it doesn’t matter what I think. The reason the privacy tradeoffs make sense for Plex is that Plex is an app your family is likely to use. Mine does, and they sure won’t put up with bad UX for the sake of using an open alternative. OBS didn’t crush Xsplit out of the market because of ideology, it did it because it became more powerful, usable and reliable.

And let me clarify I don’t “blow smoke for Plex”. I opened this whole subthread by saying I wanted to use Jellyfin (hence all the testing we’ve been nitpicking about) but couldn’t justify it. I’ve said this above. I’d drop Plex in a heartbeat if Jellyfin was just as good to use for me and the rest of my household. But it isn’t. There’s no reason to blow smoke for Plex, but there is a reason to not delusionally pretend that open source alterantives are better than they are. You’re not going to gaslight normies into using them that way and the complacency just makes it less likely for them to succeed at what they’re trying to do. It is, after all, the year of Linux desktop.

I would absolutely take “half-FOSS”, if we are thinking of the same thing. Pretty consistently the most robust, reliable, expansive FOSS projects have some foundation taking corporate sponsors or a for-profit arm providing ancillary services and I have few issues with those (less with the first than with the second). I mean, FOSS developers should be paid a salary. If that means you are backed by a significant chunk of an industry like Blender or have a for-profit arm that runs a business on the side like Home Assistant, I would much rather have that than… you know, Microsoft Office. Your mileage may vary.

But it’s a problem for the team, not the user, right? It’s one of those things where in closed software it’s either… well, the point of the thing, or if it isn’t people would get quietly fired and move on trying to impact the perception of the product as little as possible.

Here it impacts the product in that you may have to learn about it, learn about the fork and transition to the fork. There’s no separation between the HR/organizational issues and the software issues, and that’s a bit of a problem, I think, and why it reads as frequent drama.

That’s depressing for different reasons, but still a bummer.

You’re not wrong, but I think it isn’t a linear relation. It’s probably small projects having a lot of infighting and then it tapers off as it grows, and then it probably spikes again as it gets too big to handle as a small group but big enough that people in the group disagree and then tapers off again once it becomes a staple or so big it has some foundation or company attached to it.

I guess my worry, overexposure aside, is for the fizzy awkward transition bits in there impacting the perception of the whole thing, but while Organic was pretty big it’s still true that the vast majority of people have no idea it exists.

Well, the point is I don’t want CoMaps to win out over Organic Maps, I want some open source alternative to win out over Google Maps. Which is why I’d hesitate to say that LibreOffice “won” over anything, Google and Microsoft seem to be doing most of the winning in that particular space.

In a healthy community public arguments about “violated principles” wouldn’t be a frequent occurrence and wouldn’t lead to atomization of projects. I’m not taking sides on this particular example (mostly because I can’t be bothered to look up the drama). But I am saying that besides the confusion and negativity caused by seeing open source developers constantly bicker about their violated principles, it can be a major setback for the perception of reliability of open source software overall. For an app you install that mostly works no matter what it’s one thing, but if you integrate a piece of software into a workflow and it suddenly spawns two different pieces of software with different splinters of the original team that can be a significant disruption and if you fear significant disruptions you may hesitate to rely on that particular thing in the first place.

So do I think there shouldn’t be a right to fork? Not at all. That’s the whole point of open source.

Do I think it’s overall a negative for the open source ecosystem that major projects break up due to their contributors being unable to come to a decision about the direction of the project? Absolutely.

Honestly, all I can think of is “that’s a really good Harrison Ford face sculpture”.

I mean, my Plex server is on a Fedora machine, it seems to be doing fine. I have gotten into arguments here about how frustrating it is that Linux advocates pretend every usability problem for Windows users is solved and that “just use Mint” is a valid solution to that issue. If you want to know how that goes, it goes a lot like this conversation.

On topic, using any external login or remote access third party service for your self hosted services is a significant change in how much info is not controlled by you, nobody is arguing that. There’s a conversation to be had about whether that’s worth it for most users. Like I said earlier, is it a good thing for Home Assistant to provide a paid subscription service that will handle that for you? For most people I’d say yes, it’s still a much safer, more flexible alternative to Google’s or Amazon’s ecosystem, so why not? Baby steps.

But if you’re already using a commercial service that already has a proprietary login then no, it doesn’t matter. Plex already knows which clients go to your server. It does not need Google for anything here, having Google’s SSO doesn’t give them any information they already have. It does give that to Google, but if your concern is the cops are going to bang on your door for all your illegal pixels that you stream then you’re just as boned. It’s borderline irresponsible to pretend otherwise.

As for the “I have nothing to hide” thing… look, if you want to have this argument with someone else go pester them instead. It’s not “I have nothing to hide”, it’s “this commercial service that I use does something that is legal and I intend to both take advantage of that and defend my right to own my media”. How you get “I have nothing to hide” out of that is your own pretzel logic.

I have a right to store, backup and access my own media and to keep a copy of it for private use. I will exercise that right regardless of how many US corpos pretend that hey own the very concept of showing video to people. I am doing nothing illegal here and of the perfectly legal software options to do this perfectly legal thing I chose the one that had better usability for my family to be comfortable using it. This comes at the cost of an external service storing some of our data, just like our Netlfix and Disney+ subscriptions do, but since I’m not keeping a media server performatively that is a tradeoff we have made on a bunch of places because not everybody who lives here is willing to do homework to be able to use their devices. That cool with you?

For the record, I don’t have any misgivings about FOSS as a concept. I do have remarkable contempt for people who want it to keep being a minority option because they like being in the secret treehouse and don’t want everybody else learning about it. Widespread, successful FOSS doesn’t look like half-baked UX and hobbyist programmers working for nothing in their spare time, and I would certainly like to see a landscape where alongisde hobby projects we have a solid stable of financially sustainable professionally made open source alternatives that anybody can get into. Jellyfin isn’t even the worse offender here. If nothing else it’s frustrating because it could be a more approachable sustainable alternative in the vein of your Blenders or Home Assistants… but it’s kinda not, and that sucks.

You are saying many things about the legality of this, especially internationally and regarding what Plex is or isn’t obligated to do, that are a bit of a stretch. But man, are they put in context by the admission of left wing cosplay there at the end where you concede you do think “a little bit of crime is good, actually”, which explains a lot of the hack the world mentality and why you feel so cool and dangerous by sharing some torrents you got with a slightly larger group of people than your direct family.

I still do think that’s counterproductive if you ever want a scenario where the late-capitalist media distribution landscape gets at least a modicum of competition from more reasonable and sustainable alternatives. That you prefer to feel edgy than to propose a viable scenario for that is all well and good, but I wish you didn’t feel the need to do that at people.

For the record, you are still wrong about SSO. Again it makes sense that if you’re cosplaying cops and robbers “this thing bad, this thing bad, both together worse” sounds reasonable, but if you really were at risk of any real legal liability that’s really not how that would play out. In the real world ANY leak of that information from any source would be an absolute problem. So the Google login could be a problem by itself, and the Plex data gathering would be a much bigger problem by itself, but both together would just mean you are exactly as screwed as with just one.

But you think it’s cool to crap on Google (which I guess it is) and are cosplaying, so that’s a cool thing to perform outrage about even if it doesn’t really matter in this scenario. Which I’m increasingly realizing is all this conversation is about, from the “I’m so good at networking and system administration” braggadocio to the “I’m such a dangerous anarchist criminal that doesn’t give a crap about the rules because I’m so good they can’t catch me” stuff.

FWIW, I do care about self-hosting as a viable commercial alternative and about a legal framework to support it, but even if I didn’t think it was possible (which it is, and some people at least are working along those lines) I am not ready to give up on the changes required to get there just to feel cool on the Internet. You do you, though, just… try not to scare the normies away. Not that there are any normies around here anyway, so I guess we’re safe on that front.

I don’t know about that. I am not privvy to the internal politics of most commercial software developers and that’s a good thing. I guess there is some drama about whatever layoffs, corporate business practices or enshittification those are deploying, but I am a big enough man to concede that, while objectively worse, it annoys me less. At least you get to be outraged and holier-than-thou with those instead of losing faith in the ability of smart people to be mature and collectively productive.

And no, production practices and usability aren’t the same as coding, even if they are implemented in code. Unfortunately, I do think that confusion is… widespread in that community. It’s a very engineer-driven space and that has downsides. I do get why, engineers don’t like to be managed on top of contributing to things freely and there are fewer people in those capacities willing to donate their time who aren’t programmers with a side skill, which in aggregate explains a lot.

Not necessarily what’s happening here, but still.

I am not uninformed. You are very excited to get to give this speech and are looking to project that lack of information onto someone, but I never “spun” this into the notion that SpaceX will take over NASA’s research functions. I said the goal is to push the business portions to private hands. We agree this is at the cost of dropping the pure research functions in most cases. I explicitly mentioned a scenario where this delays research by thirty years.

Sometimes I feel this place is so ideologically aligned people are desperate for someone who holds whatever normie stance they are itching for a chance to push against. Sometimes they will just go ahead and do that at whoever says something that sounds even vaguely different from the default stance, even if it’s not the thing they’re arguing against.

You’re not wrong.

The biggest caveat I’d have is that social media with a friction point is still bad. The negative effects of the whole thing are fundamental to the types of interactions it fosters. Even purely direct messaging applications can and will generate a lot of the same results.

And I would even argue there was no Web 1.0. Back in the webring days I was already in IRC and Usenet was a thing. The only reason it seems healthier from a distance is that fewer people were doing it. Get back to that tech with the same user counts we have now and you have the exact same thing. Just with more ASCII art and fewer AI filters, I guess.

Man, you keep thinking that taking digs about how it’s all a skill issue is either an argument or an insult, and I keep reminding you that even if there was a skill issue at play (and there wasn’t), being hard or annoying to use is the actual problem. If your UX allows for skill issues in making a straightforward setup run then it’s a UX issue.

Also, me using Plex to host copies of my own media legally is not the same as operating a P2P service. But if it’s any consolation I have no intention to set foot on that hellhole anyway, given that US authorities seem to not need copyright overreach to throw you in a room with no windows indefinitely these days. Good luck with that.

Oh, and yes, those are mutually exclusive. Or mutually inclusive, to be more accurate. If your concern is the govenrment overreach implications of having a portion of your data leaked, worrying about a smaller leak along the way of actively generating a larger leak is entirely pointless. Conversely, I’d argue that if you have a dozen users and are terrified that the cops are going to come and raid the… I’m gonna say meth lab you’re running on the side, we’re back to the conversation about how cool you are with that dozen users having their Jellyfin clients running on a bunch of Android devices, Smart TVs, Windows boxes or whatever else.

Again, I keep struggling with the irony of this weird position having entirely bought into the narrative that self-hosting media is inherently illegal or dangerous. I came into this argument from the UX angle, you guys are increasingly convincing me that a significant disincentive for self-hosting to become mainstream is that its entire community is convinced that they are doing something wrong, apparently. It’s not that I hadn’t noticed how central to the whole thing a bunch of P2P-specific paraphernalia happens to be, but I wasn’t ready for the gatekeeping to come with a side of edgy 90s we’re-so-bad hack-the-world stuff.

Damn.

I absolutely hate open source drama. I don’t want to read your diary when I use your software, I want it to work.

I’m not even against running a parallel for-profit for extra features or corporate sponsorships. People gotta eat. I’d much rather have that than deal with following sob stories about ruthless leadership, ego clashes in contributors and endless forking because everybody thinks everybody else sucks.

The more I hang out around here, where OSS is a bit of a religion, the more disenchanted I am with it and the more I think the big game changer for this space is getting contributions on usability, production and business rather than code.

I think you’re giving their ability to coordinate too much credit. Best guess the ISPs are just withholding anything that requires investment to deploy or that they can monetize themselves. Everybody else is just bottom-feeding by selling workarounds wherever the ISPs can’t or won’t.

The invisible hand of the market sucks at creating optimal solutions, but it does great at creating scammy crap that will take your money, no conspiracy necessary.

I am glad you don’t. Not that I’d pay you for therapy. I mean, no offense, but your bedside manner is terrible, you’ve lost your shit multiple times and you keep trying to pass double bind crap as reasonable arguments in decidedly toxic ways. You’re a 5/10 opinionated online interlocutor, but a 3/10 therapist at best.

I have absolutely not been willfully misreading. You can’t argue that the guy saying he has a problem with Google’s sign-in specifically has a point and also say that the data mining happening within Plex is WAY more intrusive. If the point is whether giving Google this data is a problem it must be worse than using any of the other sign-in options. But it isn’t. Your data is as widely available one way or the other. It is reasonable to think Plex’s visibility over your server is too much, I accept that, particularly if your use case runs afoul of their EULA…

…but then you can’t tell me “I don’t trust Google”, unless your argument is you trust Plex more for some reason. Which you shouldn’t. It just doesn’t follow.

Oh, and they do sell your data for advertising. There’s an opt-in for it, though. Since we’re talking about legality, it’d be a punishable offense for them to sell your data without your consent, which is why that’s there, and they do need to tell you what data they collect if you request it.

And no, I am not liable under US law. There is a treaty that requires both parties to meet those requirements, but US law isn’t directly applicable over here. What is applicable is our own legislation made to comply with those trade agreements. Which includes exemptions for private copy.

As far as I and every piece of legal advice I’ve seen about this knows, anyway. If you have a source for how apparently US law is directly applicable to any country they have a trade agreement with feel free to point me to this insane new paradigm of international law, though.

Why do you think I didn’t look at what the default settings were? I mean, I told you a bunch of times I went as far as getting into bug reports mentioning similar symptoms, you think I just didn’t click the checkmark for “don’t turn your computer into a doorstop”?

I didn’t change any defaults I didn’t need to and I didn’t have a complicated task for it (and let’s be honest, if I did you’d be here telling me that it’s user error for trying to make it do complicated things). That doesn’t mean I didn’t set it up.

But yes, absolutely, a self-hosted open source app is supposed to guess what my setup is. At least as much as its paid competitor. Because that’s my entire point, UX matters and being open source is no excuse for your UX sucking, people are just going to use whatever works best. All the well intentioned whining about security and independence in the world won’t beat UX. So if you want more OSS get OSS devs to focus on usability.

But hey, I do appreciate the honesty of admitting this defense of Jellyfin’s UX is not about Jellyfin’s UX being as good as Plex’s, it’s an ideological argument independent from UX.

Which is fine, I share your goals. I want Jellyfin to be bigger than Plex.

But for that it needs to be as good as Plex. Or better. And it isn’t.